This forum thread will track of the version history of the following download:
Kleinlogel03.xls

Use:

schTechLib
and schWindAssessment

To add the calculation of wind actions to a frame, then carry out member assessment to AS4100 or AS4600.

Without the member assessment, simply connect the actions to a frame, then manually vary height and span, and frame spacing and map out the capabilities of a given structural section.

For example cold-formed shed industry is based on frames at 3m centres, or double sections at 6m centres. Set the span, and manually change the height of the frame until the moment capacity of a given section is exceeded. Tabulate the heights and spans. To form an iso-moment envelope for the use of the scetion for the given application. Change the section and repeat.

Of course the faster approach is to use VBA to automatically iterate increments in the span and heights, generate a table and automatically create an Excel chart.

As a guide processing 18 sizes of c-section on one height/span chart took 20 minutes using crude iteration techniques. A binary search or something else more efficient would reduce the time frame.

If use VBA to generate such charts, use the worksheet calculations to carry out point checks on the resulant tables and charts.

Once have such charts, sizing a frame can be carried out in a few seconds without a computer.

Hi

Just noticed that the formula for s is incorrect for franes type III and IV - should be s=SQRT((E12/2)^2+E11^2) - an extra set of brackets to stop E12 being divided by 2^2.

Also was wondering if their are Kleinlogel formulas for pitched portal frames with an offset apex (i.e. the apex is not central)?

Cheers

Thanks Mcollum, Frame III is the main frame I use, fortunately the workbook I use calculates centre line geometry from overall dimensions on a separate worksheet. I got worried there for a moment since been using the workbook in one form or another since 2000.

The CSI Steel manual where I got most of the formula from doesn't have an offset ridge, but the America edition of Kleinlogel Rigid Frame formulas does. Try Amazon or ebay to try and get hold of a copy. Unfortunately Kleinlogel's book is harder to use than the steel designers manual: it allowing for any kind of loading on the members, for which may also require Kleinlogels beam formulas book. So far I have not had time to sit down and study the books in detail.

My plan is to set up the fixed base skillion roof next, and then something to accommodate what we call and American barn: a central gable with skillion lean-to's either side. I may look at the offset ridge later. At present however, mostly into get the job done, using multiframe. And given that multiframe can be automated using Excel/VBA not in quite the same rush to setup more kleinlogel workbooks.

On the other hand a workbook is much faster than a frame analysis program. In Excel can integrate calculations of loads, assessment of members and connections. Several hours work with Excel and a frame analysis package can be collapsed to a few minutes (2 to 5 minutes typically), and for that purpose Kleinlogel is still faster in the long term.

With many of my clients in the cold-formed shed industry I have to get answers quick, and enable them to get answers quick. In the past they have generally held standard calculations for a small range of shed sizes, I don't like that approach. For that they typically want to find the maximum height they can get from a given c-section. Changing the height in a spreadsheet manually allows that to be achieved quickly. Writing VBA code, can generate height/span envelopes for all available c-sections, or any collection of sections for that matter: takes 20 minutes to run. So far only done this for gable frames, and need to do it for other frames commonly sold.

People go to the shed suppliers expecting an off-the-shelf product then become disappointed when what they want turns into a custom design. Even more so when I tell the supplier it cannot be done using c-section using a simple frame. So getting other Kleinlogel workbooks setup would be beneficial to the industy, though the majority of suppliers have zero interest investing in design of their product, or optimsing their production process. Using the smallest section suitable for a frame is not economical, but they would have to do real cost tracking to figure that out. Since they won't design their product, it is left to me to design the product, so that I have less problems to solve when they turn up with their problems.

Multiframe I can programme to make assessments and generate charts in-house, but multiframe is too expensive to use as an analysis engine, for a point-of-sale assessment. Thus workbooks using Kleinlogel are still the better option in the long term. Material take-offs and costing data can also be integrated into the workbook: allowing manual experimentation with different options and resultant costs.

My main workbooks are heavily linked to other workbooks, and problematic to move between computers and even different disk drives: Excel auto updates the paths and messes everything up.

If interested I can upload the more complete workbooks: combines AS1170.2 and AS4600. I especially have issues with connection design for cold-formed and hot-rolled for that matter: if its not in the code then it apparently doesn't matter. And detailed design of connections is not in the code. Thus have an industry that some how got started with out detailed assessment of connections and manages to prevail. But thats another issue.

Also if you wish I can scan the Kleinlogel formula for offset ridge, I'm not sure but may beable to upload them to Exelcalcs. If not I can email them directly.

regards

Conrad

Hi Conrad

Thanks for your reply.

I too am a shed designer to AS/NZS4600 (and AS/NZS1170). For detailed analysis we use microstran - but also have a need to provide "instant" preliminary sizing for the franchisees. We have done this for gables - but will extend this to a variety of endwall gables, monopitched portals and like you American barns.

I have an old Steel Designers Manual with symmetrical gables and monopitched frames - but have not had much success finding an original Kleinlogel book.

I agree with your comments about connection design - the only suitable way I have found, is physical testing to back up the calculations/computer models.

I would appreciate it if you could send me the Kleinlogel formulas for offset ridge gables. Are there also formulas for an American Barn type structure??

Cheers

Kerry

Hi Kerry,

I will scan the Kleinlogel formula later, and email within next few days.

No Kleinlogel formula for American barns. The 1956 edition of British steel designers manual has techniques for using the Kleinlogel for multispan gables, but seems too complicated to me. Moment distribution probably easier.

There are Kleinlogel formula for various two element lean-to frames. I figured pin the lean-to to the gable to keep it simple and simply apply the reactions to the gable frame: vertical and horizontal load.

The other alternative is to programme MicroStran, not using its macro language that is too limited, but by generating the text based 'arc' file. I did have Quattro Pro macros which generated either gable or skillion sheds and/or canopies. For the skillion, it placed a node at midspan, that is it just adjusted the 3 nodes for the gable to produce a monoslope roof. And for the canopy, it just deleted the wall loads: it may have put column drag loads on.

I only part converted it to Excel/VBA. I had lots of problems geting dialogue boxes to work, and understanding scope and life span of variables in VBA when I first changed over. Indicated by variable in my function library isExcelUseless = True. I keep meaning to fix it up, now that I have figured the limitations of VBA and it also improved beyond Excel 1997.

The problem with MicroStran though is getting the results and making changes. With Multiframe I can access results, so for example I can check the maximum moment in the frame, if less than sectional capacity, I can increase height of frame, recalculate wind loads to suit, and reanalyse the frame, and do that until the frame breaks, then step back. Though at present not confident running the multiframe programme: it seems to be important in which order I modify the node coordinates. One test run seemed to flip the direction of the loading. An intermediate distorted stage of the structure as modify height and span, can flip the orientation of the member.

Also just recently got the AS4600 module for multiframe, I was figuring with its section maker it could check the Fielders variation of the Dimond Cee, but requires it to be classed as a c-section so looses the benefit. So that leaves me using stand alone version of CFS for anything other than a c-section. My functions for AS4600 are in schTechLib on this site: but only cover c-sections. CFS is available as a COM plug-in, so its functions can be used inside Excel, but don't have that yet. Only problem is not to AS4600, in 1996 AISI and AS4600 were basically the same, but I think have now diverged.

One other option is to write own plane frame program. We have a simple plane frame program written in TurboPascal, translated from a book on the use of BASIC for structural engineering. It is limited to one loadcase per file. We are in the process of converting to VBA and using Excel for the input and output.

Still another option are the spreadsheets by Alex, I think his frame workbooks are based on the matrix stiffness method. If understand the method then can probably modify one of those workbooks for alternative frame shapes.

Though as frames get more complex, it probably better to restrict Excel for the input and output, and do the calculations in the background using VBA.

I will upload more workbooks relevant to cold-formed shed/canopy design over the next few weeks as time permits.

regards

Conrad