QUOTE:

Another way to encourage people is to allocate student and professional status....

Hi DaveC:

It is an interesting thought ... but then I also believe that we are all students -- are we not? We come to this site to share the learning experience. Sure at times we may also provide an answer to somebody's question ... but then I am reminded of the profound statement -- when one hand washes the other hand, both hands get cleaned at the same time.<br><br>Post edited by: yogia, at: 2007/05/06 16:04

Another good post by Yogi.....

I agree that quality counts over quantity and the repository and site will build with time.....but its not just a case of "build it and they will come"

if you need hints on how to build a successful site, visit the most successful sites on the internet and take something from the way they operate....

Some of the best examples of successful user contribution sites and forums are Youtube, myspace, IMDB.com and yahoo answers....

What drives this success? Why do people contribute and come back time and again...Well its entertainment and a kind of addiction too.

All of these sites involve people making some kind of a contribution but people are happy to do it because they become captivated by the contributions of others and often become deeply involved in the discussions and issues involved...

This is why I say build the forum, because getting people involved in discussions is the easiest way to get them to contribute....build from there and user contributions to the repository will follow. .....XLC is a great plugin and so a great draw...but the forum is the key to the success of the repository and the site in general.

So your next question is ...How do I build the forum....

Any takers?

In reply to Yogi's last post....

Yes we are all students....One thing you notice as you get older is that there is always something else to learn (thankfully).......

I agree absolutely with Yogi's sentement but that wasn't quite what I meant by "student and Professional" membership. I was trying to find a way to offer an inducement for people to contribute...I.E. submit calculations and improve board status and gain full access to XLC.
The site already does some of this....classifying users by the number of contributions they make to the forum.. my suggestion was an extension of this.

"one hand washes the other and both become clean"...wise words indeed...and very true.

The sharing concept is good, and I like the free software foundation concepts of freedom to modify, and their General Public License (GPL) to or the alternative copyleft Design Science License (DSL), though I think the GPL is probably better.

But excel calculations are some what different. When calculations are handwritten there is a personal style about them, so that two sets of calculations can be told apart. Personal-centric as Yogia puts it. So to a certain extent designers don't want others presenting calculations the same way they do.

We are not in the business of writing computer programs but designing, and Excel is just a design-tool. I do not submit my excel workbooks to certifiers, only the printed pages. Sharing example calculations is one thing, providing productivity tools to competitors is entirely different.

Also some workbooks are product specific design models, and as such constitute the intellectual property of the businesses which paid for their development.

Work books with VBA code are also another matter, for such VBA codes extends well beyond the capabilities of Excel, such can be exported and used else where such as a standalone VB program or other language. After all most of my VBA code started as Delphi programs I wrote, I translated to VBA to use in Excel. If I understood more programming I could have probably left in Delphi(3) and wrote an COM Add-In or something. If others are able and wish to do that great.

But there is also another obstacle to releasing such code and that is copyright issues. A few years ago I checked Australian Standards website copyright info pages, whilst it was acceptable to write programs for personal use and in-house use for a business, releasing to the public even free of charge requires permission and is likely to incurr payment of royalties. This is a potential hassle, unwanted cost, and if ignored a major risk and liability.

Note once a design workbook is released it is likely to develop and expand in usefulness, with more and more of a national standard becoming embedded in the workbook.

This has a problem for those attempting to sell standards. Those writing standards, and those already trying to sell software, including Excel workbooks based on such standards. These parties are likely to protest, once they catch wind of such free products.

There are a multitude of reasons for calculations and different audiences who read and use them. In many situations presentation is irrelevant and answers are that matters. Presentation of calculations on paper is simply familiar because traditionally tats where they were worked out. But now many are worked out by computer and presentation requirements have changed.

So users of Excel in many instances are simply carrying out calculations as a back up check for use of more specialised software. As such the workbooks are not necessarily checked and set out to be user friendly and used by others. Especially those by sole practitioners.

Thus as others have said, it requires time and effort, and it is difficult to determine what workbooks to place effort into. I started using spreadsheets around 1985/87 with multiplan, followed by Lotus 123, then as-easy-as, then Quattro Pro(DOS) then Quattro Pro (V1 for Windows), then Excel 97. I have workbooks for industrial, manufacturing, mechanical and structural engineering, as well as management.

But who really needs them? Like who hasn't already created such workbooks? What modern business doesn't employ people with the necessary engineering knowledge and the skills to create Excel workbooks to improve their productivity?

If users don't have the necessary understanding, should they be permitted to use the workbook? If they have the necessary scientific knowledge but don't understand Excel should they be permitted to use the workbooks? In-house managers can attempt to control such usage, and employ appropriately qualified persons. Released to the world, usage is out off control.

There is a website listing a multitude of serious consequences resulting from erroneous spreadsheets. Most concerned purpose written workbooks. Releasing workbooks really does require some thoughful consideration. In-house errors are likely to be spotted and corrected, externally I will hazard a majority of users will simply accept what ever comes out.

Another point is that I assume most users were attracted here by XLC. XLC doesn't do calculations. It is an add-in utility.
But the repository is focused on submitting calculations not utilities. Limiting design office automation to Excel is restrictive enough, limiting to calculations is highly restrictive. Check out some of the other Excel websites, they have very few workbooks. Those that appear to have many actually only a few, when the minor variations are considered.

As for XLC, I think it is good, but at present I don't have a use for it. Correct me if I am wrong, but the equation shapes do not automatically update when I change a number, I have to execute re-draw. One reason I changed from QPro, was that I didn't like executing macros for the worksheet to be upto date, that interferes with the natural operation of a spreadsheet, with Excel I changed the macros to VBA functions. Now when I change a number the worksheet is upto date, and I no longer need dialogue boxes to collect the data and execute the macro.

I would like to see ExelCalcs develop. But I think the introduction of building information models (BIM) is liely to see a reduction in use of Exel calculations as more and more engineering design gets integrated into software. However Excel can be used to control higher level software which as a COM automation interface such as MultiFrame.

Calculations have a purpose. The environment in which ExelCalcs is operating, and the potential is far greater than simply plugging numbers into formulae displayed in Exel.

Attached are more thoughts I had on the week end, along with ideas for spreadsheet development.

When I get opportunity I will submit some workbooks when I have suitably modified them. But I will leave it to others to format them with XLC, I prefer getting as many inputs and results on a page as possible.

QUOTE:
So to a certain extent designers don't want others presenting calculations the same way they do

The calculations in the repository give guidance on how certain calculations may be performed. People will reformat the spreadsheets to suit their own needs.

QUOTE:
Sharing example calculations is one thing, providing productivity tools to competitors is entirely different. Also some workbooks are product specific design models, and as such constitute the intellectual property of the businesses which paid for their development

People are free to submit or not. I don’t think anyone will submit a calculation that gives away intellectual property or competitive advantage

QUOTE:
These parties are likely to protest, once they catch wind of such free products

Following these rules, no-one would be able to submit written calculations to a client

QUOTE:
But who really needs them? Like who hasn't already created such workbooks? What modern business doesn't employ people with the necessary engineering knowledge and the skills to create Excel workbooks to improve their productivity?

As Yogi points out above…We are all students……no-one person has such knowledge that they don’t have to consult a book at some point. The repository calcs act as a reference tool and so are potentially useful to people at all levels.

QUOTE:
In-house errors are likely to be spotted and corrected, externally I will hazard a majority of users will simply accept what ever comes out.

If repository calculations are used in anger it is the responsibility of the user to check them. All reputable companies operate a quality system requiring independent check to be carried out.

QUOTE:
Limiting design office automation to Excel is restrictive enough, limiting to calculations is highly restrictive.

Excel is an extremely popular programme, but design offices often have many other tools at their disposal. At my place of work we use various FEA packages and other tools. Excel comes in handy for automating the design of certain structures and tanks but I don’t feel like we are limiting ourselves by using it. In many ways it is the quickest route to an optimised design. In others we can’t get enough detail or accuracy using hand calculations and we have to resort to other methods (which are almost always slower).

Sorry DaveC I whilst I agree with most of what you say. I think my point was lost.

Technicians to engineers are trained to solve problems with pencil and paper, to draw pictures, to evalaute algebraic expressions, crunch numbers, draw graphs and other technical diagrams to aid solution. Excel simply integrates paper and calculator so that don't have to write calculation on paper and transcribe into calculator. It minimises errors and provides a template which improves presentation of future calculations and also speeds up such calculations.

So my point is who is going to be looking for Excel calculations? Those are using Excel already have, those who are not using Excel don't yet care.

If a new problem arises, then the starting point is a reference manual, possibly a text book with worked example. Now admittedly schaums outline provides MathCAD examples. But they are textbook problems, not real design solutions.

And submitting calculations to clients does not infringe copyright, it does not remove the need for the standard. A workbook develops and increasingly diminishes the need to reference the original standard. That infringes copyright.

The Australian region map in the wind actions workbook on this website infringes Australian standards copy right, both for the workbook and for the website recommendation, if permnission was not obtained to publish. And that is a risk which needs to be addressed.

It is not a simple matter of simply sharing calculations. Those calculations need to be presented in a suitable manner for a suitable purpose. The audience who are likely to go seeking workbooks needs to be thought out, and what type of workbooks they are likely to be seeking.

Thus as others have said the forum is initialy more important than the workbooks. First identify the type of workbooks people are seeking and likely to share.